Halal Money Matters

Episode 6: Entrepreneurship In Islam and Black Lives Matter

President of Linfield University and Amana Mutual Funds Trustee Dr. Miles Davis joins podcast hosts Christopher Patton and Monem to discuss entrepreneurship in Islam and the Black Lives Matter movement.

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Halal Money Matters Podcast

Episode 06 – Entrepreneurship In Islam & Black Lives Matter

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: Welcome to Halal Money Matters; I’m Christopher Patton.

MONEM SALAM: And I’m Monem Salam.

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: We’re fortunate to have another exciting guest on this episode: Dr. Miles Davis. President of Linfield University. He’s an author, a leader in faith-based entrepreneurship, and just happens to serve on the board for the Amana Funds. And we’re kinda tackling a couple different topics in this episode, too. And one is to talk about entrepreneurship in Islam and... you’ve spent a lot of time in the community. Do people ask about this topic?

MONEM SALAM: Entrepreneurship is similar to the investing part of Islamic investing because, I think, people know that they shouldn’t be involved with the alcohol part of it, and those type of things. But sometimes we do get this question about, well, you know, Islamic investing allows you to do 33% in debt or 5% in alcohol, you know, why can’t I do that in my own business? We get that all the time. But more importantly, I think what’s really important for people to remember is that, you know, really, what people are wanting is advice on how to raise money, how to make sure that it’s Islamic, all those things. So, I think those are the two branches or the two areas that really get a lot of questions.

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: We also want to talk to Dr. Davis about the financial side of the Black Lives Matter movement and ways that, maybe, investors can be advocates. Or, is there an obligation as an investor, or as an Islamic investor, to kinda keep an eye on companies and how they’re associated with that movement.

MONEM SALAM: Yeah, this is very exciting. You know, he’s African American. Not only coming from Philadelphia, but also growing up in an African American community, I’m sure he has a lot on his mind when it comes to Black Lives Matter.

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: Sure. Alright, well let’s get right to it.

[music interlude]

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: Just to jump right in, what are we talking about when we talk about entrepreneurship from an Islamic perspective? Is it a question of what does it look like? Or is there even more of a base question before that of, “Is it permissible?”

DR. MILES DAVIS: That’s an excellent question. So, let’s be clear because it’s important to understand words within their context. The word entrepreneur is a relatively recent word. The simplest definition is where you are responsible for the means of production. You are the owner of that particular thing. You are not working for someone else. You are working for yourself. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad, Salallahu Alayhi wa sallam (peace be upon him), they didn’t use that word, entrepreneurs. There were other, more common words that are relevant words that we do know, such as traders or merchants. And so, there are two things that I draw upon and there’s a paper that I have published on this called “An Islamic Model of Entrepreneurship”—which anyone can Google and find, go to Google Scholar and find it, it’s been circulated quite a bit—which addresses what I think is the foundation of Islam. Because, the first convert to Islam was the Prophet Muhammad’s first wife, Khadijah. Radi Allahu anha (may God be please with her). So, why is that relevant? Because Khadijah came into contact with the Prophet Muhammad because she learned of his reputation. And she—now listen to this, Chris, because this defies all stereotypes about Islam—she hired him to work for her and represent. So, not only is entrepreneurship at the heart of Islam, but women owning businesses are at the heart of Islam. So, now I’m getting controversial and people are saying, “Oh my gosh, you can’t say this type of stuff.” But, it’s true. It’s a historical truth. And she represented him, why? Because he was considered trustworthy and truthful and she wanted him to represent her. And this is a woman that had the largest caravans. When she went to Yemen, her caravans were bigger than all of the other caravans put together. So, she was an extremely successful merchant and trader. She hired the Prophet. And I will say, now we’re getting into the realm of my opinion. So, people are free to free to disregard this, but because she was a wealthy merchant and trader, it was part of Allah’s—subhana wa ta’aala (Glory be to Him)—plan to allow the Prophet Muhammad to be successful, because he had the backing in order to make independent decisions without necessarily being tied to various other institutional structures. Now, let me tell you where that goes for me, the next leap in my mind about why entrepreneurship is not only halal or permissible in Islam, but I would even offer it is the preferred form of Islam. And this is for a number of reasons. So, let me start with a hadith from the Prophet Muhammad, Salallahu Alayhi wa sallam (peace be upon him). And that’s when a man—and forgive me for my imprecise narration but anybody can very, they can take the key words and go look it up for themselves. So, when a man came to the Prophet Muhammad and he wanted to marry. Of course, I’m paraphrasing now, Prophet says, “Okay you want to get married. What’s your issue?” The man basically says, “Well, I have no means of earning a living. I have no way of doing anything.” Prophet says, “Okay, well... you know, actually you do.” And the man goes, “What do you mean?” So, basically then the Prophet told the man to go cut a bundle of woods, put them on his back, and go sell them. That’s entrepreneurship! 

MONEM SALAM: So, but I think you make a very highly important point in the very beginning that Khadijah, who was the wife of the Prophet, was an entrepreneur. A lot of scholars think that the funding of Islam in the early years actually was because of the fact that she had her independent wealth. But it’s not only the funding, it’s the independence of it, right? For example, Abu Hanifa is another one. The reason why he was able to come up with his opinions that he did...


MONEM SALAM: ...was because he wasn’t reliant upon the state to give him money, or anybody else. He had his own businesses. Very, very important point to make. And you mentioned something about one of the companions. I want to give you another example, just to kind of share, and that was with Abdul Rahman. He was the wealthiest of the wealthy, right?


MONEM SALAM: When he first got to Medina, when his “brother” said, “Take whatever you want from whatever I have,” he said, “Nope. All I want is for you to show me where the marketplace is.” And in a short period of time he had enough money to buy himself some new clothes, enough so that the Prophet came walking past him and was like, “Oh, I smell something good on you and you’re wearing new clothes.” And this was within a few days of being able to do that. So, I agree with you there’s a lot of encouragement towards doing things on your own.

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: So, it seems at the heart of it is to not just provide for yourself but to improve your community so that people have the freedom to make their own decisions and pursue their faith within a structure that works for them.

MONEM SALAM: It’s a really good point, you know, and our community in the US, and unfortunately maybe, people don’t even realize that they’re entrepreneurs, but they really are. For example, in our community, when youngsters are growing up, you tell them to become a doctor or an engineer. But the thing is that a lot of the people that are saying that are themselves the ones owning their own businesses, restaurants, so they’re doing it themselves. But also, a lot of doctors have their own practices which is also entrepreneurship, right?


MONEM SALAM: So, I mean it’s kind of within that fabric of our community. It’s already embedded. I just don’t think people have said, “Oh yeah, I am an entrepreneur.”

DR. MILES DAVIS: Yeah, and so, what people need to primarily understand is not to look at entrepreneurship from a perspective of, you know, how innovative or creative it is. I think that it would help a lot of us to see ourselves differently. If we looked at what we did and the ability to more or less control what it is we’re doing. And so, a doctor who is an entrepreneur has a practice. And yes, they have to answer to the patients, but they’re not necessarily working for someone else. They’re working for themselves. And I will tell you why I got excited as a matter of personal interest in entrepreneurship. Because of reading about those examples in Islam, I have a lot of Muslim friends who are employees. And I’ll make the distinction between employees and entrepreneurs. And you want to know what they have problems with? “I can’t go make salat because my boss won’t let me go.” You know, “Brother Miles, I wish I could attend Jum’ah. My boss won’t let me go.” When you own the thing, you’re like, “Okay, I’ll be back. I’ll talk to you in a few.” When you’re in control. But even... I would encourage people even to extend... we talked about, Chris... we talked about entrepreneurship, is even intrapreneurship, because going back to the example with Khadijah and the Prophet Muhammad: she empowers him. Another new word that we’re using. She empowers him to do deals on her behalf. And he acts in her best interest because he was a trustworthy individual. And so, that is intrapreneurship as he was working for an entrepreneur. And so, this is at the heart of Islam to look at how you can improve your circumstances and create an environment that allows you and your community to flourish. And let me give you the icing on the cake about this. All the time that you spend in making an honest living is considered time that you have spent in worship. It’s incredible.

MONEM SALAM: That’s beautiful, Dr. Davis. Thanks for the reminder. It’s so true. I want to step back a little bit and really talk about framework. So, if you are an entrepreneur... I remember a quote or something that happened during the time of Umar ibn Al-Khattāb, before you were allowed to be able to able to come into the marketplace and trade, you actually had to learn the fiqh of trading. Living in America now, obviously you’re on the board of the Amana Funds, not only the President of Linfield University. What would be a good framework to look at from a Muslim perspective and say, “This is what I can / can’t do.” Not only from an Islamic perspective but also then from just a societal and Muslim perspective, as well.

DR. MILES DAVIS: I think that we need to understand... what does God expect of us? And I could refer you to verses in the Quran to substantiate this. He expects us to engage in fair dealing. Then I’ll add something, if you want to get more nuanced, which underpins a lot of Islamic thinking about entrepreneurship as well as Islamic economy... is that money and money making doesn’t exist just for the sake of making more money. You’re supposed to do something with that money. You know? It’s flooding into my head all of the rules that I learned which quite frankly have led me to the position that I’m in today. For instance, you know, when I was in business school and I was dealing with business school... they always teach you to get money fast from people and pay them as late as possible. But that’s not the Islamic model. As a matter of fact, the hadith says that you should pay a person for their work before the sweat is dry on their brow.

MONEM SALAM: That’s an interesting point that you mentioned. Talking about learning in business school and those type of things and you know; in business school you’re initially taught that it’s shareholder value at any cost. Shareholder value. And slowly, now, over a period of many years, there’s also stakeholders, there’s also societal costs. You have to factor all of this in. Then, kind of branching off from that, your opinion about... Where does Islam lie in this? What does the Prophet Muhammad or God say about this situation? Is it the business that you’re in? And I think I already know the answer, but I want you to explain it to me. Is it just about the shareholder value and maximizing that? Or is there some higher purpose that we have toward these businesses that we do.

DR. MILES DAVIS: What Islam teaches is that what... and I’ve actually written about that... is more consistent with the move away from pure shareholder maximization to what has been called stakeholder theory. It’s your impact and that you’re impacting people by what it is that you’re doing. And so, you have to take into consideration. So, not only Islam was ahead of it’s time in terms of what we now call stakeholder theory, it was also ahead of its time for what we now call CSR or corporate social responsibility. Because you always had an obligation. Quite frankly, it was ahead of its time in what we now call environmental stewardship. These are all fundamental constructs of Islam. It’s that you had to take care of these things. The people who are invested in you, you create sustainability which creates sustainability of your reputation on top of everything else. Not just the business model. It’s not just returning the highest profit. It’s returning something is sustainable in the long run as opposed to just short-term, do whatever it takes and the heck with everybody else. I don’t know if that’s the answer you were looking for.

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: You know, we kind of touched around it but something that comes up on this show either directly or indirectly, whether we’re talking about mortgages or your retirement account or whatever, is... is it harder? To be an entrepreneur and to have these additional considerations?

DR. MILES DAVIS: It’s otherwise known as the Muslim tax. Matter of fact we might even have a chance to talk about what they refer to as the Black tax later on, too. But the Muslim tax. And so.... Look, when I go out to eat, it’s a lot easier for me to get a pork chop sometimes. But why don’t I? You know? I don’t get a pork chop because I’m following a different code of standard. Do I feel as if I’m losing something in the short-term because I can’t have short ribs with Kansas City barbeque sauce? Maybe I am. And you know, and right now I live in Yamhill County. I’m in the middle of wine country. Pino Noir country. I had a guy over to my house who sold a bottle of his wine for $50,000. Am I missing something because I didn’t get to taste that $50,000 wine? Believe me, I was very tempted, because I wanted to know what $50,000 wine tastes like. You know, yeah, maybe. Maybe. But, why am I here? And the purpose of my existence isn’t to have... You know, we talked about maximization of shareowner value. It isn’t to maximize my enjoyment of this life. The purpose of life to get to the afterlife and that often requires sacrifice. But I will tell you this. I have found that my life has been enriched, even financially, by following Islamic principles. Not investing in what is commonly called sin stocks is actually a good thing ‘cause I don’t get in trouble. Also, Islam abhors debt. And the payment of interest. So, guess what I don’t have, Chris? I don’t have any credit cards with debt on them. So that makes me one of the rarest things in the United States of America: a black man with a perfect credit store.


DR. MILES DAVIS: Following Islamic principles engaged my life. I don’t spend beyond my means. I help support my community. I do what I can. And so, it’s about why you’re doing this. It’s about, quite frankly for me, it’s about maximization of blessings. It’s about how to earn peace, the real wealth, which are the blessings in my life and the positivity that’s brought into my life as a result of doing the right things for the right reasons.

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: Well, to pivot topics a little bit, you mentioned what you call the Black tax and as a black entrepreneur we’d like to speak with you a little bit about the Black Lives Matter movement and how that pertains to investing and finance.

MONEM SALAM: Yeah, you know, and particularly, what is our responsibility as shareholders? And maybe not necessarily of the Amana Funds but potentially investors in companies involved with the African American community or involved in the Black Lives Matter movement? What’s a good starting point to look at?

DR. MILES DAVIS: We cannot have a conversation about this in the 21st century, in 2020, without understanding the history of this country. And there’s two distinguishing periods that are worth examining in regard to this conversation. One is during the time of Jim Crow and post-Jim Crow era in the United States. So, the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1968 which prohibited official discrimination. And so, for those that are looking for a date, I offer 1968 as a distinctive date. But I want to encourage people to look at the history of two states relevant to this conversation. When we had a segregated society, Blacks owned more businesses than they do right now. Now if you want to see an example and then what happened to them, you need to look at Oklahoma and look at Black Wall Street and then look at Florida, which had a similar community. Because when Blacks were forced to do business with each other, they created entrepreneurs out of the communities that served them. And so, if you could not stay at any hotel, you had to stay at a Black owned hotel. If you couldn’t eat at any restaurant, you had to eat at a Black owned restaurant. If you couldn’t get insurance, you had to buy insurance from a Black person. And so, people started businesses to take care of their community and allowed wealth to recirculate in the community. And I’m not going to give shortchange to the fact that those communities were intentionally destroyed by the white community of the time because they began to envy what was happening there, but I don’t want to dwell on that particular point. What I want to dwell on is what happened as we move forward from 1968. Because Black Americans. I have to be clear about this because most people in the United States look at pigmentation and determine that a person is black, but Black Americans have a different behavioral pattern than Black Caribbeans or Blacks from Africa. 

MONEM SALAM: Let me just stop you. I was in Minneapolis very shortly thereafter the whole thing happened with George Floyd. And I didn’t realize that the Somali community there, who lives adjacent to the African American Black community... they don’t actually 100% get along. Which was interesting to me because within one generation, the Somali community... nobody would know the difference.

DR. MILES DAVIS: But they feel it. And as somebody who was married, I mean you knew my ex-wife. Carol was Haitian. And I was exposed to this quite a bit about the distinctions and perceptions and the things that are going on. So, part of what feeds into this, and I’m sorry, I’m not going to spend too much time on sociology of this, but it’s relevant to understand wealth creation in this country. It’s that Black Americans have always been taught that they are less than. And so, what has fed into them is the desire for acceptance, particularly in white society. What does that mean? It’s that post-1968, Black Americans believed that the water that white people drank was wetter than the water that they drank. And so, rather than go patronize a Black business, they would often go patronize a white business and not keep the money inside the community which would allow the transfer of wealth. And this persist in some degrees today. And so, even though... it’s interesting that in an era of Black Lives Matter, I’m starting to see, for the first time, promotion of, “This business is Black owned, you need to support it.” But there are three things that older Black Americans of my generation... so, for the listeners of the podcast, just so that I can date myself, I’m 61, but they are three, maybe four businesses that were Black owned that are no longer Black owned. One is BET. Black Entertainment Television. Owned by Sheila and Bob Johnson. And now owned by Viacom. The other one was Johnson Publications that owned Jet and Ebony publications. Again, no longer owned and quite frankly barely in existence. And another one was Gaskin. Most people are aware of the history of Gaskin who still runs an insurance company. One of the most successful insurance company. These are incredible businesses, but outside of that, there are none of those businesses. And then if you look at that in comparison, even as I look at you, Monem. Your family is second and third generation, but they came over, established a foundation, and did some things, and that just has not happened in the Black American community. And then, if you throw in the issues of redlining and restrictions of wealth and even, quite frankly, in the era of PPP loans and look who’s getting the money. Minority businesses are not getting the money because they don’t qualify because many are sole proprietorships and they don’t have the structures to make this happen. They’re being left out. And so, the gap in wealth... the two things that provide access to wealth which is home ownership and owning businesses, have been denied to Black Americans. And unfortunately, there’s not enough, often, internal belief to do some of the things that some of the Caribbeans or the people coming over from Nigeria, the way they support each other and build up the community, so they can fund themselves instead of having to go to “The Man”... that was in air quotations for those of you that are listening...

MONEM SALAM: But, you know, even during this Coronavirus epidemic, not only... we have the statistics on how it’s affecting the African American community more just on the virus side. But now you’re looking at it from the economic side and if you look at traditionally owned black businesses: restaurants and barber shops. Those are the ones that are being shut down. 

DR. MILES DAVIS: Sole proprietorships! They are sole proprietorships that often don’t have accounting relationships. They don’t have legal relationships. The foundations that, again, I learned from my fine business education that you need to have when you go into business. They don’t have those things. They don’t have anyone to file the paperwork. And by the time they had the paper filed, the money was spent. And so, you fall further and further behind on the economic ladder. And people talk about... it’s always amazing to me when people say they’re not racist. And I’m not calling peoples’ names, but here’s where I am clear: it’s that you don’t have to be racist to perpetuate a racist system. And so, unless you affirmatively are taking steps to say, “Okay, how can we help these communities?” Because I got news for you Monem and Chris: people who have full bellies, who own homes, and have money in the bank, don’t riot. They don’t own any of those stores. They don’t own any of the businesses. If you want to stop riots in the street, invest in the neighborhoods that create opportunities for the people who want to take care of themselves. And so, which all leads to the transference of wealth and building in the era of Black Lives Matter. The reason, and Monem you touched on this earlier, is that COVID-19 isn’t just a physical illness. One of the first things that the schools in McMinnville had to consider when they closed down was, “How do we get meals to our students whose only real meals are when they come to our school?” And unfortunately, too many of those people are Black and brown children. You know. And so, I’ll offer this as a perspective, to jump to the other side of this, is relevant to consider about owning the means of production. If you’re worried about being discriminated against because you’re Black, and look I know this is easier said than done, but if you own the business, you get to make a difference in the decisions. So, there are Black owned banks that you need to engage in having conversations about. You know, if somebody doesn’t want or doesn’t make the food you want, then do the work as necessary. Even as we talk about the challenges of that, how do you have things in your community that allow you to make decisions. And I’ll just share this one last story, which shaped my thinking about this. When I was at Duquesne University, I got to meet a gentleman who forever had an impact on my life. It was Dean Ronald Davenport. He was Dean Duquesne University Law School. The first Black Dean of a major white institution. And I showed up, and I know it’s hard to imagine for those who are listening, you don’t know that my head is bald and is shaved now. But I showed up back then in 1979 with my Dashiki and my afro and, you know, all about power to the people. And Ronald Davenport, I went to see him. He was from Philadelphia, and I went in to see him, and he said, “Miles,” he says, “I recognize and respect what you’re saying,” because I was in Pittsburgh. And he said, “You can just go downtown and throw pebbles at US Steel and think you’re making a change, or you can prepare yourself to run US Steel and make a real change.” The final thing he said to me. He says, “Just because you wear a Brooks Brothers suit doesn’t mean you have to have a Brooks Brothers mind.” And so, I was taught that the way of power wasn’t about the protest, the way to power was to be in decisions to hire and fire people because then you overcome some of the structural barriers that people face, in terms of discriminatory practices.

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: This is maybe related to that, some, but let’s say you’re an investor that has been passively benefitting from a racist system and you want to make a change. And I’ve heard you say before, you know, to start with yourself. Focus on yourself. Somebody that’s looking at your wealth or your portfolio... how different is it from being an Islamic investor where you’re kind of having to keep an extra eye on things?

DR. MILES DAVIS: So, Chris, that’s a wonderful question. If I may reinterpret it. It’s like, “Okay, I made money. I benefitted from this. What do I do with the money?” So, let me be clear. Money in and of itself has no conscience. But let me give you a simple thing that I think that could benefit all of us. If you just took... eh, let me pick out a number out of the air. If you just took 2.5%. If you just took 2.5% of the money that you have left over after you paid all your bills. So, I’m not telling you to take it from the gross, I’m telling you to take it from the net. Take 2.5% of the money you have left over and then use that money to reinvest in worthy causes or worthy individuals... you could transform society. Identify 2.5%. Of what you have left over! And take that and use that to invest in a business, or a startup. Doesn’t make whether you make $100, you make $100,000 or if you make $1,000,000. 2.5% of what you have left, take and invest in a person or a business that you think is worthwhile and support it. And then, along with that 2.5%, give them the most precious thing you can give them, Chris. The most precious thing. The non-renewable thing. Which is your time. And say, you know, I know you have a sole proprietorship. I know you’re trying to get through school. I know you’re trying to do this. Let me help you. Let me be there for you. Let me benefit you. If you even did the same equation. If you look at the number of hours in a day and instead of—some of my friends that I know that play Madden or FIFA soccer for 4.5 hours at a time—if they took 2.5% of that and said, “You know what? I’m going to take 20 minutes to speak with somebody who needs my help,” you could transform the world. You could transform the world.


MONEM SALAM: To circle back to this thing, you know, the ESG funds that we have, one of the things that we do on the governance side is to be able to look at the diversity of the board as one of our criteria. That’s gender diversity, that’s ethnic diversity, all the different things that make that up. So, the question really becomes, you know, what else can a shareholder do? Besides that. What else can we do to be able to... as a shareholder, not the fund but as an investor putting money to work for society?

DR. MILES DAVIS: So, investors need to realize that the board is there to represent shareholder value. And so, one of the things that’s happened in the era of Black Lives Matter is there’s a lot of organization that have given lip service to support diverse businesses and quite frankly, the employees are beginning to call them out on that. “You’re saying that you support diverse businesses but look at your hiring practices, your promotion practices, and everything else... yeah, not so much.” So, shareholders have to hold the board, which represents the shareholders, accountable for matrix that are meaningful. Giving lip service is not meaningful. And it’s easy to give money and then walk away. What does it look like in terms of the decision making in the organization? What does it look like in terms of hiring and promotion patterns? What does it look like in terms of fair equity in the organization? How are people treated? The term that we used in business school was a balanced scorecard model. It’s not just to create returns but how are people treated as part of this organizational structure and shareholders have a responsibility to do that. Shareholders really do need to pay attention to what is put out in the shareholders report and also pay attention to what is not put out in the shareholders report. That, you know, and then maybe to contact the board. I know there’s this term “activist shareholders”. Well, doggonit, it’s your money, you should be active about it and let people know what it is you’re thinking about how we can do better. And the board members need to realize that they’re not just there to collect a paycheck and read over performance and approve things, that the job of the member of the board is to look out for the best interest of shareholders. And so, they should, at some point, besides being shareholders themselves, they should, at some point, be engaged in talking to shareholders to understand what shareholders are looking for and thinking about the bigger picture. You know, what is it that we say that we’re about? So, for instance, I sit on the board. Matter of fact, I’ll give you two examples. Sitting on the board of the Amana Mutual Funds, which is a board that’s designed and promotes itself as Shariah compliant, Islamic investing. So, clearly it was designed to serve the Muslim community even though non-Muslims invest in it and do things. But our job is to make sure that we’re following the prescriptions as best as possible so that our shareholders don’t have to worry about whether we’re doing the right thing. Our job is to monitor all of this. So, let me just say this, then you know, as we begin to wrap up this podcast. Let’s be clear. Black Lives Matter is not a statement about exclusivity. The words Black Lives Matter are only missing a preposition at the end, which is the word, “too.” It means Black lives matter, too. Those that want to respond with All Lives Matter... that’s not what it’s about. We’re asking for inclusion in that. But you cannot have a conversation about Black Lives Matter just on the perspective of policing. You have to have a conversation about Black Lives Matter from how we’re taking care of a population that, quite frankly, has been handicapped. There is a structural reason why Black Americans are disadvantaged in this country. And if you want to create a United States of America that lives up to its promise, then you have to affirmatively engage in that process to create a system that works for everybody.

MONEM SALAM: Dr. Davis, thank you so much for your time.

CHRISTOPHER PATTON: Yeah, thank you.

DR. MILES DAVIS: Thank you Chris for hosting. Brother Monem, I hope to see you soon.

MONEM SALAM: Give my regards to your family.

DR. MILES DAVIS: Be well. Be blessed.

MONEM SALAM: Take care. 

[music outro]



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